Episode Transcript
ATM012 - Alex Sarian on The Audacity of Relevance
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[00:00:00] Victoria: Hello and welcome to the latest episode of _At the Mic_, _Au Micro_, a podcast brought to you by Arts Consultants Canada, l'Association des consultants canadiens en Art. In this edition of _At the Mic_, we bring you a valuable and timely conversation about how arts and cultural organizations can become truly relevant today.
[00:00:21] Our guest Alex Sarian will share with us some wisdom gained from his personal experience and that of others.
[00:00:29] Arts Consultants Canada first wants to recognize the generous support of Unity Design Studio for sponsoring this podcast. Nous remercions le commanditaire de ce balado, Unity Design Studio.
[00:00:41] Unity Design Studio is a high ranked Canadian B Corp architecture firm with over 50 years experience designing many art venues, including significant ones in arts and culture, including the new Canadian Canoe Museum in Peterborough. You'll hear more about them in the next podcast.
[00:01:01] Alex Sarian joined Arts Commons as President and CEO in 2020, after seven years of leadership roles at the Lincoln Center for Performing Arts in New York.
[00:01:10] In addition to overseeing the major facility in downtown Calgary, which hosts over 2, 000 events annually, he is also leading the largest cultural infrastructure project in Canadian history. The Arts Commons Transformation.
[00:01:25] Alex has also served on governing boards and special advisory committees for institutions such as South by Southwest, Museo de Arte Moderno de Buenos Aires, The New Group, and the Varkey Foundation's Global Teacher Prize.
[00:01:41] Alex's new book, _The Audacity of Relevance_, _Critical Conversations on the Future of Arts and Culture_, to be released later this month, is already being praised. as a manifesto for the arts in times of crisis. And now here is our conversation with Alex Sarian.
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[00:02:01] Victoria: Welcome. Kwey. Bonjour. My name is Victoria Steele and I'm a management consultant that works in the arts and culture sector in Canada, and currently chair the board of Arts Consultants Canada, Consultants canadiens en Art, a national association of arts consultants. And I just can't say how excited I am by our guests today. We have Alex Sarian. And many of you may know Alex. He is the CEO of Calgary's Arts Commons, and many of us have recently heard about their major capital project, but what I've learned also is that this is much more than just a renewed building. It offers lessons on how to create a thriving arts community in a post-pandemic world.
[00:02:55] Now, I was drawn to his 2023 TED Talk about the need for arts organizations to be truly engaged with their communities, themed _The Audacity of Relevance_, and I shared this with my marketing students at the Sprott School of Business. I spoke with Alex and was inspired by his really strong desire to share his observations with others in the cultural sector.
[00:03:23] And now Alex is about to release a book titled with the same theme as that talk. So now we have a chance to really learn more, and why.
[00:03:35] So I just want to lead right in and say, Alex, given all your global experience, what about Arts Commons and Calgary brought you back to Canada? You left at age three and have since had many arts leadership opportunities. We're thrilled to have you back.
[00:03:53] Alex: Thank you so much. And Victoria, thank you for having me. It's such a privilege to be in conversation with you. And, yeah, thank you. To answer your question, one of the things that attracted me to Calgary was on one hand, the project, and we'll talk a little bit more about that, and all the different conversations we're having in and around it, Calgary as a city, that is beautiful and has a history and is misunderstood and is going through an identity crisis... that excited me, but I think also coming back to Canada, where I think we have an incredible opportunity to rethink a business model that is perhaps a little bit more of a hybrid between the American and the European or the Australian. And so as arts communities around the world are struggling post -pandemic, and I'd be willing to say we've been, we've probably been struggling for a little longer than just five years.
[00:04:47] I think Canada is really beautifully positioned to carve out a new way of doing things, that I'm excited... I'm excited about exploring. I don't know. The jury's still out, but, but, I feel like we are asking the right questions at least.
[00:05:05] Victoria: Well, and it's interesting, just following your LinkedIn page, there's a lot of enthusiasm about what lessons might be learned from the Calgary Arts Commons Transformation, but also your book.
[00:05:17] And maybe you could tell us a little bit how the Arts Commons Transformation project is somewhat unique and, what is in there that the rest of Canada's cultural sector can learn from?
[00:05:30] Alex: Absolutely. I will be talking a lot about Arts Commons Transformation, but I do need to give credit where credit's due. This is a project that predates me, right? So this project was originally called _Project 2010_. The need for an expanded arts centre in downtown Calgary has been identified for decades, in part because of how fast Calgary has been growing as a city and how, not only in terms of volume and amount of people moving here, but the diversity. We're the third largest, third most diverse in Canada, over 40 percent visible minority communities.
[00:06:05] And so it's not just about the growth, but how we're changing. And so I think, this project has been on the forefront of so many people's minds because of that. I think me moving here in 2020 allowed us to breathe new life into it because of things that were coming up during the pandemic. I mean, there was a social justice reckoning happening around the world.
[00:06:25] There is a need for arts organizations, and I think most people, to redefine their value proposition in terms of, how are we in service to others. And so I think I found myself in the right place at the right time with the right story and we were able to, and I'll tell you a little bit more about the project, we are right now, shovel's going to the ground in December, it's happening.
[00:06:48] We are currently the single largest cultural infrastructure project in Canadian history. It's a 660 million project. It entails expansion. It entails rethinking outdoor space. It entails gut renovating our current facility. So it's really a comprehensive rethinking of what a downtown cultural campus would look like in downtown Calgary.
[00:07:13] It's been incredibly successful and we can define success in many different ways, but one of the ways I want to share with you and your audience, is that just last month we exceeded 75 percent of our fundraising goal. So we've exceeded half a billion dollars worth of fundraising, publicly and privately, including the single largest gift to the performing arts in Canadian history.
[00:07:33] So there is so much out there that is telling me that we are on the right track. And the reason it's important for me to give the TED Talk and write this book is because I want people, not just in Canada, but beyond to understand that we're not just building a fancy new building. In fact, when I moved here, I told my board, we need to start thinking about the Arts Commons Transformation as more than just physical.
[00:08:00] Anybody with enough money can build a building. The question for me, the important question, is whatever we're building, the physical manifestation of who we're becoming? And who we're becoming is the transformation that excites me the most. And so, the conversations in the book that I share and in the talk are, what are some of the conversations we're having behind the scenes? Whether it's with the internal team, whether it's with board, with donors, with architects, so that as people see the shiny new facade that we're going to be building, they understand that there's a lot more to the transformation than what meets the eye.
[00:08:36] And those are conversations that I feel are relevant for everybody, regardless of whether or not you're embarking on a capital campaign, right? You don't need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to rethink your value proposition or to rethink how we program or who we program for. So those are the conversations that I think are more exciting and honestly more challenging.
[00:08:57] Victoria: Yeah, it's interesting... you had numerous things that have converged at the same time to say, hey, time for a rethink, a conversation, and sometimes timing is everything, and we'll learn something from... all can learn something from that.
[00:09:16] Now as someone who's been able to really see community engaged arts projects in action, in the past, I was drawn to your approach; really engaging audiences beyond your four walls. Could you talk a bit about why, why you took that approach?
[00:09:35] Alex: Yes. So let me be clear. This has always been the right thing to do. This is all, like engaging communities and defining our success through the lens of impact, through the lens of social impact, through the lens of... that has, in my mind, and I can, my background's in education and community engagement, so that's always been the right thing to do.
[00:09:55] But when you talk about timing, as you just did, I think there's a new urgency in the moment right now, where it's no longer a nice to have, it's no longer the right thing to do. There is an imperative that we do it, because the status quo, for most of us who are paying attention, the status quo is no longer working.
[00:10:16] All we need to do is open a newspaper anywhere in the world and read about, audiences aren't coming back fast enough, ticket sales are down, philanthropy is down... and that paints one version of reality. The other version of reality is that people are spending more money on experiences than ever before.
[00:10:34] There's this pent up hunger to have social cultural experiences. And for some reason that's not translating into the non-profit arts world for the most part. I will say that there are people doing incredible things out there. But I think that urgency A: the urgency, and B: knowing that's always, that that's always been the right thing to do.
[00:10:54] I think for us at Arts Commons, and I mentioned this in my book, during the pandemic, we created a series of pop up concerts. A: because we wanted to keep employing local artists, and B: because we were hearing from our audiences and community members that they were tired at the time of consuming arts and culture digitally.
[00:11:14] And so what we did is we partner with the City of Calgary, with the Parks Department, and we would go into communities and neighbourhoods where we knew that we did not have single ticket buyers or subscribers or... we all have that data. And when you overlay that data onto a map of our city, you can start identifying, okay, where are the hubs of people with whom we already have a relationship?
[00:11:38] And where are the folks that we don't have a relationship with? And I think it's such a dangerous thing for arts organizations or leaders to look at that map and say, Oh, that's a cultural desert. That's not a cultural desert, it's just significant of the fact that they don't define culture in a way that, that we celebrate it.
[00:11:56] And so we took that opportunity during the pandemic to identify those communities, to very humbly start building relationships with them on their terms and on their turf. And we would go into these neighbourhoods and say, we want to provide cultural experiences because we understand it's what these are the experiences that keep us healthy.
[00:12:15] It keeps our communities healthy. If you have artists within your neighbourhoods that, that celebrate cultural identity as defined by you, then please give us a chance to present them, to elevate them, to provide them a platform. So we started producing concerts in parking lots and parks and, socially-distanced... things that everybody did, but we were... the underlying agenda, and it's not so sneaky, it's very strategic is we were going into communities that never cared about Arts Commons before. And we were learning about them. And we were benefiting from their hospitality so that as pandemic restrictions were easing, we could go back to them and say, let us return the hospitality, let us return the generosity with which you welcomed us into your home and come to Arts Commons, come to downtown Calgary, and if we have learned from you, then the experiences that we will provide with and for you, you will see yourself reflected in it.
[00:13:12] So there's that back and forth and there's that dialogue.
[00:13:15] And in my book I talk a lot about dialogue and asking questions because we need to move away of assuming we have the answers to everything, because we don't. And that's okay. It's more important about asking the right questions and how are we building community around the answers together. So, that's one small example of how we were able to leverage opportunities during the pandemic to keep artists employed, keep audiences engaged, redefine our relevance to new communities, in ways that have now benefited us and Calgary, as we move forward into this new future for the organization.
[00:13:55] Victoria: Yeah, I just love that. And, I understand that when you welcome them into your house with some different programming and so on, it really brought the audiences in, right? It was that...
[00:14:08] Alex: My God, yeah. So we, I, tell this story, summer of 2022, when everybody was, and I don't say this flippantly, everybody was suffering. The pandemic wasn't over. Restrictions were still trying to figure out what's what. In the summer of 2022, Arts Commons had the busiest summer in our 40 year history because we were able to host a 13-concert series of South Asian artists that would normally tour through Canada, but historically just skipped over Calgary. And part of the communities that we had spent a lot of time learning from in Calgary during the pandemic was the South Asian community of which... it's huge in Calgary. And we benefited from their hospitality and their generosity during these pop up concerts. And then for us to be able to say, now you come to us and we will demonstrate to you how we are changed because of you, how we are a better organization because of you.
[00:15:07] And we had tens of thousands of people come to our concerts. Many of whom, most of whom, came to Arts Commons for the first time. Many of whom came to downtown Calgary for the first time. And, and I would go to these conferences and say, and hear stories, heart-wrenching stories, about organizations struggling and going out of business.
[00:15:29] And part of me felt super weird walking in and saying, hey guys, guess what? We just had the busiest summer in 40 years. And it's not rocket science. And the other thing I'll say is that we need to stop assuming that community engagement doesn't come with earned revenue possibilities. We need to stop assuming that minority communities need to be provided free, discounted... I mean financial barriers are always a thing that we will need to explore, but I think sometimes the pendulum moves too far when we assume that minority communities don't have the disposable income to enjoy culture on their terms. There's a story that, I don't know if I, if you've heard me talk about, but I used to teach at Pace University in New York and Pace University is an incredible post secondary... and, the class I was teaching happened to be mostly first generation Americans.
[00:16:26] And I was the only white person in the room as the professor. And I was teaching about financial barriers and perceived barriers and geographical barriers. And I will never forget the story. A young man raised his hand and said, mister, how much are your shoes worth? And I looked down at my loafers and I was like, I don't know, 80 bucks maybe?
[00:16:46] And he pointed to his Nikes and said, I paid 400 bucks for these. He said, I'm taking my girlfriend to see Beyonce at Yankee Stadium next month. He said, just because I don't spend money on what you have to offer, don't assume I don't have money. It's that I don't care. And so we need to stop projecting on communities that don't come to our shows or experiences.
[00:17:13] And yes, there may very well be financial barriers, but we need to stop assuming that is the only reason. And we need to start asking the question, what might, what do you find valuable? And what can we do to attract you on your terms? So there's just so much about what we need to do differently. And again, we don't have the answers, but I think, and I talk about this in the book, how do we take a step back as programmers, as leaders that have historically been asked to be arbiters of taste?
[00:17:46] How do we take a step back and say, our job is to listen and to learn and to take all of that information and yes, provide excellent, cultural experiences, but not necessarily as defined by us, as defined by the community that we're seeking to engage with.
[00:18:04] Victoria: Yeah, I love what you're saying. And I've heard similar things out of my classrooms who are now majority non-white and, are we running the risk of being disconnected? This is the interesting thing. Looking at your new book, I was really struck by the subtitle, "_Critical Conversations on the Future of the Arts_."
[00:18:31] Wow, well of course I ordered it right away.
[00:18:35] Your book, it begins with a discussion asking serious questions about the value proposition of the arts and our business models. And you've just been hinting at that. As somebody who's engaged in arts marketing, I find this really refreshing. Now, why did you feel that you needed to kick off the book in this way? Because it really is the kind of foundation of the conversation.
[00:19:01] Alex: So as you indicated, the book is divided into chapters and every chapter does a deep dive into an area of our business, right? So you'll have a chapter on programming, a chapter on belonging, a chapter on marketing, advocacy, you name it. And the reason the book is structured that way, is because I want everybody to understand that asking questions about relevance takes on a different shape regardless of who's doing it within your organization. But at the end of the day, it's important that we do. I mean fundraising, right?
[00:19:36] There's one of my favourite chapters in the book is about fundraising and how, and talking about donor fatigue. Donors are not fatigued of giving, they're just fatigued of us. And that's not a them problem, it's an us problem. How do we, in the silos that we have created for ourselves, how do we explore this as an organization? But to your point, we start with the value proposition because that's the 'why'.
[00:20:00] The rest of the book will tell us the 'hows' or the 'what' we need to do, but if we don't agree, if we don't agree about the why we're doing this, then I think we're missing the big point. And, and, every chapter is in dialogue with somebody else. So I interview, I interview experts, most of them who are not from the arts world.
[00:20:21] And the value proposition is looking at the Calgary Downtown Library as a case study. Not every chapter looks at Calgary as an example because I want people to understand that there's more to this conversation than just our local community, but there's so many amazing examples in Calgary, not the least of which is the Calgary Downtown Library, which, if you've been to Calgary, you know this is one of the most... I mean... international awards... here's a library, and here's a leader that has redefined the value proposition of the library system, so that they've moved away from this being this transactional place where you check out books, but it is a place for community gathering, for the sharing of ideas. If you want a quiet library space, you can find it. If you want a raucous daycare because you're a mom of three, you can find it. It is beautiful, and it redefines who we are in service to and how we define success. And to be honest, when I was interviewing for my post here in Calgary, I went to the library and I said, if this can happen with the library system, it can happen with an arts organization.
[00:21:26] So that's why I wanted to start with the library and libraries around the world have done this. And I, for over 10 years, I've been talking about how much we need to learn about the transition that library systems have made over the past few decades, because they are truly in my mind, if done right, the golden standard of how you evolve a value proposition with while still remaining committed to the integrity of your mission.
[00:21:51] Victoria: Yeah, and you, when we looked at the chapters, and how you structured it, you, each of the chapters has an interview with somebody, as you said, but, I understand that the lens of the value proposition is something that you encourage us all to keep front and centre. And, you were talking about silos and that can be in communities as well as within organizations. But that if we have the why, the value proposition there, and it doesn't matter what aspect you're working in, programming, fundraising, your goal, your North Star, is that. Could you talk a little bit about how you made that work or you're striving to make that work at Arts Commons?
[00:22:43] Alex: Sure.
[00:22:44] So Arts Commons is a performing arts centre. We host around 2000 events per year. And interestingly enough, unlike the National Arts Centre where you have all these different organizations, at Arts Commons, they don't all report into one office, like they might at the National Arts Centre or the Kennedy Center in the U. S. We have a model that's closest to Lincoln Center, which is why I felt very comfortable coming here, where we have incredible organizations like the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra and Theatre Calgary and Alberta Theatre Projects and Downstage and One Yellow Rabbit and their High Performance Rodeo.
[00:23:17] Of the 2000 events per year that we can host, I'd be willing to say that around 80 percent are out of my control. And, while that would probably drive most people crazy, I actually love that, because it means that we are stewards of an ecosystem, and we are stewards of a facility that is being benefited by others, rather than me, or any one person, dictating what should be happening. And you can be incredibly well-intentioned, but no one person should ever, it just, it's not realistic.
[00:23:51] And it's important for us here to understand how we engage and how we partner, and having a value proposition that creates room for others in it, I think is incredibly humbling. It's incredibly necessary. It allows us the opportunity to be constantly in dialogue with others. And we do it out of sheer necessity sometimes, but we are embracing it more and more, particularly as we expand, right?
[00:24:24] So as we expand, my goal is to hit a million square feet of arts and cultural space in downtown Calgary. We're looking at doubling our square footage. That means that we need to make space for more arts and cultural organizations and artists in our campus, and having them tell us what they need from us, as opposed to me telling them, Here's what I need you to do.
[00:24:47] So it's humbling. It is nerve-wracking sometimes, but it requires us to have our finger on the pulse. And I feel like that is the, and that's that comes with tension, but if that tension is addressed in a healthy manner, I think we become a better organization, not just to our consumers and audiences, but also to the folks that we work with, which is why the book is, it's the goal, the goal of doing these deep dives is to... and I'm sure you've heard this too... people say, oh, that's a great idea, I just can't afford to do it.
[00:25:21] Listening to audiences and engaging. That's great, I just can't afford to do it. The whole premise of the book is it doesn't matter what department you are in within an organization... you can't afford not to do this.
[00:25:33] Victoria: Great example. Is there anyone, in one of the chapters in your book that you feel really best exemplifies what you've just indicated?
[00:25:45] Alex: Oh my goodness, yes. I feel like philanthropy... so the chapter on fundraising is a really interesting one because I know that one of the things that we struggle with depending on where we are is, the number of nonprofit arts organizations is growing and will continue to grow.
[00:26:08] In fact, the number of organizations that are entering the market are entering at a faster rate than at which others are leaving. So the non-profit arts organization sector is getting larger and we all know that government funding is not expanding at the same rate, and may never. So we need to figure out as a sector, how to start funding differently.
[00:26:35] So, corporate sponsorship, individual philanthropy, foundation... we just need to become a little more sophisticated. And, sophisticated is even the wrong word. We just need to be open to new ways of supporting this work. And hearing from Asha Curran, who's the CEO of Giving Tuesday, Giving Tuesday, in 2022, mobilized, I want to say it's like over $2 billion worth of giving. And so they understand how, like how do you inspire giving, whether it's corporate, whether it's individual, whether it's and sometimes we're not good at telling that story, ironically, because we're storytellers. The other chapter that excites me because of storytelling is the one on messaging. And we talked to, we talked to, a friend of mine who oversaw the We Love New York campaign or the We Love New York City campaign during the pandemic.
[00:27:30] And she talks about how you tap into sort of the ethos of a particular time and place. And then we talked to Nahed Nenshi, who's former mayor of Calgary and, one of the most popular mayor in the world. And he talks about how do you mobilize politics? And so at the end of the day, it's how do we take the value proposition, and the value proposition is probably the only chapter that requires readers to do inward-facing work because the value proposition needs to be true to who we are and what our commitment to society is.
[00:28:04] Once we figure out that story, the rest of the book is about how do we tell the story outwards and how do we engage people in the storytelling? I, asking me to pick my favourite chapter is like asking me to pick my favourite...
[00:28:17] Victoria: That probably wasn't fair.
[00:28:19] Alex: Yeah.
[00:28:20] Victoria: It's... it's interesting how you say that the time that it would take to really do the listening and the reflecting and the value proposition. As somebody, and many consultants like us, we do lots of work helping facilitate strategic planning and so on, is that very often we come up with ideas, and then we struggle to put them into action. What you're saying is, if we're looking at what can the sector take away from the experiences that you're sharing, is do some homework. Okay, your homework, do a lot of listening, and then here are some ways to help you figure out how to put it into action, because that's sometimes where I see the challenges.
[00:29:03] What do you see is what you really want to share with the cultural sector through the work that you're doing?
[00:29:13] Alex: I, what I really want to share is that there's hope, right? And there's... we all go to conferences and we all have, we all read the papers and, the world has changed. COVID has accelerated that change... that change. And running an arts organization, like running any organization I would imagine, is not getting any easier. And it's not getting any easier in part because we are still playing by the same rulebook that got us to this point. And, what I hope the book and these conversations convey to people, even though we don't have the answers, this is very much an exploration, but what I hope the book provides is a sense of bold hope and optimism if we engage communities in redefining who we are.
[00:30:10] Because people are, despite the realities that we are facing as organizations, people are spending money on experiences. I talk in the book about this new phrase that was coined by the New York Times, I think it was last year, this concept of "funflation," that younger generations are literally going into debt, to purchase experiences that are fun. And that is going against every economic modeling for the past 50 years. And so how do we as organizations that are in the business of bringing people together around arts and culture, how do we take a step back, and say, things aren't working, we need to figure out a new way of operating, and the good news is, that people are wanting to tell us how to change. People are... people are going to festivals, people are spending money on sports events, people are going out for dinners, people are going to Taylor Swift concerts. People are out there showing us what they want and we need to figure out how to respond and then ultimately lead in that process of civic dialogue.
[00:31:28] The... there's a corporate example I share in the book which, when Nike is developing the new sneaker, they don't just design it in a vacuum, put it on shelves around the world and cross their fingers and hope it sells. They have, they have groups, they have cohorts, they have market analysis... Like, in a very corporate cold money-grabbing way, they are trying to ensure that whatever they put out into the world is uniquely a Nike product, but also one that they know people already want. So how do we find our own way? And I'm not suggesting we need to become corporate because that's that would be entirely wrong. But how do we take away our own version of that process, that has us engaging in dialogue learning and then coming to the table and demonstrating our expertise and leadership in a brand new way?
[00:32:24] Victoria: So here's a quetion for you, there's been a lot of conversation about new business models over the last, even pre-pandemic, right? Lots of conversations about finding new business models. And those of us who are consulting and teaching and maybe leading large organizations are going, yeah, that's interesting.
[00:32:44] Let's see what we can do. But the vast majority, of arts and cultural organizations in this country and elsewhere are small.
[00:32:52] They might look at your book, they might listen to this podcast and say, oh, this is all very fine and well, but we don't have the resources to do that. I don't know how we might go about that.
[00:33:05] So, maybe we can conclude this conversation, Alex, by, just a short conversation about how small organizations with limited resources might actually do the same.
[00:33:20] Alex: So I love that question. So first of all, let me also say that nobody needs to be tackling a 600 million capital project to be having these conversations. The chapter on design is very intentionally the very last chapter of the book, because I don't want anybody thinking that you need to be either expanding or renovating to have these conversations. You don't. This, can all happen and should happen right now. But when you talk about different sized organizations, what I love about this is, and we all know this to be true, the smaller the organization, the more nimble the organization, the more responsive the organization. When I look at, when I look at organizations and leaders that are doing this work really well, they live in this, they live in, they're running smaller organizations that can be nimble, can be responsive. And so I would say to most of us that the principles in this book... I'm not asking people to just imagine it.
[00:34:23] There are folks out there actually doing it and chances are they are running smaller organizations. Because the large, as and as we all know, the larger the organization, the more systems we have in place, the more rigid we become... it's like the Titanic. How do you turn a ship that's big?
[00:34:41] And when the name of the game is being responsive, it's the larger organizations that are going to struggle the most because we have built these pillars and systems and infrastructure in place that we're literally not meant to pivot. And so I would say this is an opportunity for those smaller organizations to lead the way, for the smaller organizations to actually teach the larger organizations, to partner with the larger organizations, and, figure out how do we bring our value proposition, how do we bring something that we are already really good at, which is being responsive to community and being responsive and being nimble.
[00:35:21] And how might we partner with a larger organization, because we are experts at this and not the other way around. And I think that provides potentially a beautiful dynamic change within the ecosystem of arts and culture, where we can start elevating the people that are closer to community, which let's be honest, sometimes it's not the larger organizations. And I think that provides... Hopefully it creates a leveling of the playing field where we can start listening to each other and learning from each other, regardless of how big our institutions are.
[00:35:55] Victoria: Absolutely, love.
[00:35:56] Great conclusion, great wrap to this conversation, and something tells me this is really just the beginning of this conversation. I love that your book is about questions that we're asking, learning from each other, listening. Very inspiring, Alex. I want to thank you for your time and I'm sure that all the listeners are going to be as excited as I am to read your book as soon as it comes out next month.
[00:36:27] Alex: Thank you so much for having this conversation with me, Victoria.
[00:36:30] Victoria: Take good care.
[00:36:31] Alex: Thank you.
[00:36:32] Victoria: And that wraps up this edition of At the Mic, Au Micro. a podcast of Arts Consultants Canada. For information on Arts Consultants Canada and our members, please check us out online at artsconsultants. ca. To send us feedback or questions or anything you hear in this podcast series, please email us at podcast at arts consultants. ca. And you can check out our show notes in the podcast for links mentioned during the program. Thank you so much for joining us at, at the mic, Remember to subscribe to this podcast on Arts Consultants Canada's YouTube channel, as well as Apple Podcasts, , Spotify, or wherever you find your favourite podcasts.
[00:37:10] Et notez bien que quelques épisodes sont en français. Until next time, thanks for listening. À la prochaine.
[00:37:19]
